Long Arm Stapler
A podcast about zines.
Http://linktr.ee/LNGRMSTPLR
Long Arm Stapler
S8E4: Erin Dorney
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Hello and welcome back to Long Arm Stapler, a podcast about zines! This episode, I'm joined by NY-based Erin Dorney. We talk about her work, which includes zines about the stresses of being a renter, erasure poetry, and art books, how she got into zines, dachshunds, and more!
Find more of Erin's work:
https://www.erindorney.com/links
http://instagram.com/erindorney
Find more of my work:
http://linktr.ee/LNGRMSTPLR
http://ko-fi.com/LNGRMSTPLR
Others mentioned:
https://www.craftordiy.art/
https://www.standwithminnesota.com/
https://bsky.app/profile/allisonanne.com (mutual aid fundraisers)
Thanks for listening!
Logo by Miquela Davis: @ghostsb4breakfast
Intro/outro:
Who Likes to Party Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Hello and welcome back to Long Arm Stapler, a podcast about zines. I'm your host, Mira. Um another great episode for season eight. Today I'm joined by Erin Dorney, who is based in western New York off the shore of Lake Ontario. She's the author of Yes I Am Human, I Know You Are Wondering, a collection of epistolary poems addressed to Adrian Mischler of Yoga with Adrian, The Usual Arteries, an unfolding artist book, and I Am Not Famous Anymore, Poems After Shia LaBeouf, a collection of erasure poems sourced from media interviews with Shia LaBeouf. She has made zines about Ecrasis, a bookstore scavenger hunt, the time she met John Mayer, her delicate digestive system, how to use a notebook, how to clean your bathroom, artist residencies, ideas, and being a renter. Erin makes books at her day job, which is managing editor at Sarah Band Books, a nonprofit literary press, has exhibited at the Center for Maine Contemporary Art, the Minnesota Center for Book Arts, the Susquehanna Art Museum. She applies for many grants, hence many rejections and a few lucky acceptances, and loves to go on artist retreats. Her Dachshund PD is featured prominently in Elliot Giannini's Short King's Zine, which is a zine I love and as a Dachshund person myself have given out several copies of. So hello, Erin.
SPEAKER_03Hey, thanks for having me. I'm so glad that you mentioned the Dachshund thing because that was going to be my first question to you. Was I saw all the Dachshund stuff in your online store. Tell me about your Dachshund.
SPEAKER_00Uh her name is Annie. Um, she is almost 12. She's a Dox and Terrier mix. She is incredible, runs my life. Uh Michaela made my podcast logo to look like Annie on top of a long arm stapler. Yeah. Big fan of Dachshunds.
SPEAKER_03Totally. That is an amazing zine that Elliot made. And uh my dog Petey, he is uh like a black and white short-haired Dachshund, but he's definitely like a mix of something. He's a little bit taller than a normal Dachshund. Um, but yeah, he's uh he's 11 and he you'll probably hear him barking. Like he has complete control of the house, um, runs runs my life, as you said. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh with Dachshunds, it's not like, oh, I own a Dachshund. It's like, it's like the Dachshund owns me, basically. Yes.
SPEAKER_03And and and you've probably reached this point after 12 years with the Dachshan, but like we had to actually have kind of like an intervention with our friends and family and and be like, no more doch and things. Like we can't have any more pillows, like no more docs and socks.
SPEAKER_00I'm so I'm cracking up because I we have not had that uh intervention yet. We've only had her for about six years, so I think it's coming soon. Uh and it's partially we do it to ourselves. Partially, whenever anyone sees a doxhind, they think of us and get us something with a doxhond on it. Um I don't think it ends. Does it end?
SPEAKER_03No, it doesn't end because still in the thrift store, I'm like, oh, a dochin thing, put it in the cart.
SPEAKER_00Everything I feel like every time I th almost every time I go to a thrift store, I find something doch in related, and I'm like, oh, it found me. It's a sign. I have to take it home.
SPEAKER_03Totally.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Um, good. Glad we're on the same page with that. Uh and yeah, everyone, if you love Dachshunds, please check out Elliot's zine short kings. It's great. It's a little uh mini zine featuring Petey.
SPEAKER_03He's on the skateboard.
SPEAKER_00So how did you get into making zines?
SPEAKER_03Well, this is a good segue because I learned everything I know about zines from Elliot Gennini. They are absolutely like my zine person. Um, I didn't really know about zines before like 2013, which um I was living in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Elliot was living there, and we met through like the DIY community um and started like I just learned what a zine was. I had not encountered them. Like, I'm I'm like an elder millennial, and a lot of my friends are like, oh, I encountered zines in the 90s in high school. And I was like, I didn't, I never heard of zines in the 90s. Like I was really sheltered and you know, grew up in this rural area. So I didn't encounter them till you know 2013. Um, and I made this zine with Elliot then. Um, it was like a collaborative community zine on found poetry. Um and I got it out just in preparation for this podcast because I haven't looked at it in years, and it's just like so heartwarming to see my first, my first zine. Um it's not very like interesting. I'm showing you on the on the video. But uh yeah, that was like kind of the beginning. And um after that, like I made, I helped people make a couple other zines. Like that same year in 2013, my partner made a little chapbook of his writing. And I remember distinctly remember like sneaking into his university, not even sneaking in, just going to his university library, and he was using up all of the um his remaining print print cue or whatever. Like a student gets a print, a certain number of prints per semester. And so we were like frantically using up to make copies of his chat book before the semester ended. Um but then like after that, like a little, a little bit after 2013, I moved to Minnesota. And when I lived in Minnesota, I met um Sean Knickerbacher, who is a cartoonist and the editor of uh Rust Belt Review, and um his partner, Kate McLam, um, who's the co-founder of a literary magazine called Lost Pilots, and they were both making zines, and they kind of like again, you know, like Elliot did, just like told me how cool they were, showed me examples, um, talked to me about like this whole community that exists. And um it took a couple more years after that till I made like my first personal just me zine. You know, like I still had to like build up the courage. I like made, you know, some collaborative zines, some like how-to zines, and then like probably like around 2019 is when I f made my first like personal zine that was like just my voice sharing something um in a zine format. So that's kind of like, yeah, that's my that's where it came from for me.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah. And what a great person to get you into zines. Elliot Rocks, um, they were on, I think it was season, they were on an episode of I think season five. So they've been on the podcast and I've chatted with them and like we've been internet friends for a long time. Um, yeah, what a great like intro to zines.
SPEAKER_03Totally. It was like just mind-blowing, earth shattering. Like, I just I didn't know, I really didn't even know about the DIY community at all before I met Elliot. It was like, I don't know, I just I didn't know there was a whole group of people out there who were just like doing things together and like figuring it out. Um, so I really, really am so grateful that that I met them and that like yeah, just being able to follow their work, like Wanderer, like how many issues are we at now? It's like so cool to like that's probably like the first series of zines that I've followed, like almost in real time. Um I l I like I like that being able to follow one person's like trajectory.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's something that's really special about like Perzine series is just being able to like kind of follow along with someone's life, like like you said, in real time, and just kind of most of the time it's real time. Sometimes you'll find a series that's like older, but that's something that's really cool about Perzine series. Um is you're just you're kind of right there along with the person.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So in the time that you've been making zines, uh, what inspires you to keep making them?
SPEAKER_03Having a deadline.
SPEAKER_00Yep.
SPEAKER_03Like, has this come up before on your podcast? I'm sure.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's like uh the best inspiration, the best motivation is like a zine fest is coming. Uh there's a call for, you know, contributors. Um, there's a grant deadline. Those are like music to my ears. Because I'm like, I gotta finish this now. Um but that's kind of more like what's motivating me to keep making them. I guess like what inspires me to make them is just like now that I'm a little bit a part of that community, the continuous feeling of awe that people are just making their own shit all the time under all these circumstances. It's just like incredible to me. And I love I love to see people taking action in that way, um, instead of just talking about it on the internet or whatever, you know, dreaming up ideas. I have tons of like dreams of ideas, but it only matters if you actually do it. And I feel like the zines, like the zine community, like we're actually doing it a lot of the time. Um yeah, that's really inspiring to me. I also just really have made so many good friendships through making zines that that inspires me to keep going because I'm like, I just moved to a new place again, and I'm like, well, I'll probably just find the people making zines and those will be my friends.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean one I feel like once you start making zines and you even if you're in a new place and you like find the people who make zines, you'll you'll click. Even if they're you know different subject matter, it's like there's just like a common thread of like we like making cool things about stuff. Wow, that was the worst sentence of all time. Uh good good try though. Thank you, thank you. But you know, like like I don't know, the zine community, there's there's so many different people in it and so many different types of zines, but I feel like if you find a zine person, no matter what their zines are about, there's like an underlying like, oh yeah, we can jive kind of thing.
SPEAKER_03And there's like a total um, in my experience, um, like generosity that exists that I have not encountered all the time in publishing as an industry and as a writer in like, you know, some writing circles, it's a lot more like um, you know, there's like a little bit of bitterness or whatever about people getting certain opportunities or, you know, um, but in the zine community, what what I've experienced is that people are always willing to share with you, like tell you about what's going on, tell you about the cheapest place to print, like people to stay away from who are toxic in the community. Like, it's just been um really refreshing to see that, like, not as much like gatekeeping of information.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I'm especially interested in your perspective on this as someone else who works in publishing. Like, I just I do find that it's so gatekeepy, and I don't see that in the Zine community, and it's such a like wild thing for me to go from my nine to five and seeing that kind of side, like traditional publishing versus indie publishing and self-publishing, like it's just so different, the communities involved.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I am I'm starting to see more overlap in the writing community and the zine community. Like a lot of my like small press and indie press circles, zines are becoming part of it now, which is interesting to see. And and sometimes I'm like, Do you are you guys ready for this? Cause like you have to be happy for people when they do their stuff that you can't just be like jealous. Um but it's it's cool to see kind of like an expansion of those two, like like a Venn diagram of like all the worlds colliding. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I mean, going back to what like keeps you inspired to make them and also what motivates you, those are two very real things. Like, I have definitely talked to a lot of guests on the show who are like, oh, a zine fest is coming up. I have to make something. And I'm the same way where like a you know, an opportunity to show something off is upcoming, and I need something to do that with. So it's like like right now I'm trying to finish Zine of the Hill 4, which is like I'm hopefully gonna finish it, it'll be released by the time this episode comes out, but it's just there's been no real deadline for me to finish it, and now it's my Adobe trial is expiring and I need to get it done. So that's really lit the fire under my ass to be like, okay, the zine will be done. It's taken, you know, nine months or whatever, but I'm finally, and I've got a zine fest coming up finally, and so it's like sometimes that's all it takes is like a deadline.
SPEAKER_03I feel like there's because we care about this community too, there's this feeling of like, well, I don't want to go, I know I'm gonna see my other zine friends at the fest. I don't want to go with nothing new. Like, I gotta have something new on my table. Like, so it's like, I don't know about you, but I always have like three half to three quarters finished zines just lingering. And like I'm like waiting to see which one will get finished once I have some sort of deadline or whatever. Um, but I'm so glad you mentioned Adobe. They're so expensive, and like I've been trying to train myself to move onto the free Canva, and it's so hard to like unlearn what I learned on Adobe because Canva does it a little bit differently. And I know there are other tools out there as well, but like I don't know, recently I just was like, should I still be paying for Adobe? Like, this is absolutely ridiculous because they raised their prices again. And I used to be able to, like, as a freelancer, I could write it off or whatever. I got it through, you know, something else, but it's just yeah, it's just absolutely absurd. Yeah, I don't I hate them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. I feel like I'm I'm paying for like the lowest level, which is like 15 bucks a month, and for what? I can't combine PDFs, like I can't I don't even know what I can do with that $15. So I need to just cancel that. But like to be able to combine PDFs, it's like $30 a month, and you have to opt into their like AI bullshit. So yeah, I'm on a uh I had a week free trial, couldn't finish the zine. They were like, Oh, you want to cancel your trial before it's up? We'll give you another seven days. So I'm like working really hard to fit it within I have to finish it this week, otherwise I don't know what I'll do. Um yeah, I hate Adobe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. It's it's just like it's so ridiculous. They I recently learned because I was thinking about canceling and like was chatting with them. There's like a fee to cancel your subscription. There's a fee assessed to cancel your subscription. What? Like that that can't be like legal.
SPEAKER_00For why?
SPEAKER_03Like it's like because you said you were gonna buy it for a year. If you cancel before the year's up, we're still gonna take like a certain percentage of what you said you would pay.
SPEAKER_00Oh, that's so dumb. They don't need the money, they've got so much money.
SPEAKER_03I know. This is just an anti-Adobe podcast now.
SPEAKER_00Yes. I hope everyone's enjoying it. Uh, if you also hate Adobe, hit me up. Let's chat. Um on to things that you enjoy and that we enjoy here on the podcast. Um, I've got some questions that I've been crowdsourcing for you. I think I finally decided on a name for the segment, and it's Questions to Ponder. Um, I've been calling it different things, including new segment when it hasn't been new for like 10 episodes. But here we go. Um, so you have applied for grants. Um, how do you find grants and how do you use them for funding your zines?
SPEAKER_03Hmm. That's a good question. And I like I like pondering. I think that's a good one. Um so I love applying for grants and I'm pretty good at it. Like I've done grant writing as a job. And um how I use it for my grant or for my zines is basically I'll because I have zine sters are so ideally like situated to apply for grants in this manner because you already have a body of work. You usually have to show work examples in a zine or in a grant proposal. And it's like pretty unique, I think, for grant reviewers to see a zine as a work sample. Um, they're seeing a lot more like traditional types of writing or visual arts. Um, but usually what I'll do is I'll propose a project for my grant, and it'll be like what I want to make the zine about, like housing. Um and then I'll include examples of my past zines, which like you can also be, you know, it's it's really compelling in your grant application to be like, and I've passed out 200 of these already. Like that's impressive to them, knowing like how many you've distributed. Um and then I get the grant and I use the money as my artist fee and for my copying, like supplies, paper copies, um, and what's the other? Oh, and like sometimes subscriptions. So like I'll use the grant to help pay for my Adobe subscription for a while. So that's kind of how I've used it in the past. Um, and usually you have to like, if you get a grant, you have to, you know, put some sort of statement on the on the product of what you made with the grant. So like I'll just put it on the back of like my mini zine or whatever that this, you know, whatever their required languages and their logo um sponsored by the Council for the Arts for whatever state. Um and that's it. And that's how I've done it. The other thing that I've done with the zines that grants have funded is make them freely available to for other people to download and print and make copies of to distribute. So I figure because I was paid for them once, like I could make that, you know, they were it's usually like taxpayer money, these grants, because like if they're from the Estate Arts Council. So I'm like, well, if anyone else wants to make copies of this grant or of this scene about like how to write about art, you know, they can download it and make copies and put it around their their own museum or whatever.
SPEAKER_00Um cool. Where do you like find grants usually?
SPEAKER_03I usually start at like the state level, like whatever state you live in will have a council for the arts or something like that, arts council. Um, and every state I've lived in, which is New York, Pennsylvania, and Minnesota, they've always had like um smaller grants. So like $1,000, $500 that are accessible to individual artists. That's like what you would want to look for. Um, something for individual artist projects, um, which means you usually don't have to have a fiscal sponsor or be a nonprofit yourself. You can just get the money as a regular person. Um, and so I check, I start at the state level and I see like what they're offering and what their, you know, schedules are like. And then I just start looking at arts, arts councils, arts organizations. Um, like they're usually like locally based on your county or something like that, um, like geographic regional stuff. And they'll usually have just a page on their website. Website that's like grants that we offer, and you know, I'll put together like a big spreadsheet of all the different timelines so I know. Cool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that is personally very helpful information, and I'm sure listener-wise, very helpful information because like funding zines is hard. Um, and if someone else will pay for it, like why not take advantage of that?
SPEAKER_03Totally. And I feel like, you know, as we all know how to make zine money stretch, there's various ways. Um, and if you get like a thousand dollar grant, that can stretch a long, that can stretch a while. Like, you know, so um you don't need to get, you know, be getting one all the time for it to really have a big impact on kind of your output and your craft. I think it's a great thing for art, for art grants to support with their money because the impact of a grant is can be really far reaching, you know. It can it can reach a lot of people, and not all arts are like that. Sometimes it's like they're they're giving out money for um, you know, like a visual art painting show or something, you know, only the people in that little area are probably gonna see something like that. So you got a good case, like you have a strong case.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that's something to ponder um for sure. Um, okay, next question to ponder. Do you have any favorite zine fests or bucket list zine fests?
SPEAKER_03Well, I've never been to any zine fests on the West Coast. So I would love to go to like Olympia or Portland or something someday, something like that. I also would really like to do the Pittsburgh Art Book Fair someday. I've heard really good things about that. Um one of my favorite fests that I've been to is I think it's called the Portland Book Arts Fair, something like that. Like the names get all, you know, they're all different, but it's in Portland, Maine. And it was awesome. I've been there twice and it was just like good vibes, good people. Like Portland, Maine knows a cool town. The ocean's right there. Like it was just a great, great trip. Um, but I also like really have a fondness in my heart for the Lancaster Zine Fest, which is in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. That's a really, really good fest, and it's just like exploded in terms of growth. Like every year, I think they're about to go into their fourth year, and every year they're just like the venues having to expand, and you know, it's just lots of different people there, and very cool to see. And in a town like where you used to live there, where there was no zine fest. It's cool to see that.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah. Um kind of related to the Pittsburgh Art Book Fair. How do you do like how do you differentiate or is there differentiation, yeah, differentiation for you between an art book and a zine?
SPEAKER_03Sometimes, like when I'm thinking about applying to those art book fairs, I like almost talk myself out of it because everything at my table is very scrappy. Um, you know, I don't have anything hardcover. I don't have I have like maybe one or two things that are even printed in color. Um and but I always I'm like, well, if they'll let me come, I might as well, because like you need a price point for everyone. And I've always had good experiences when I've been in those spaces, like in terms of sales and conversations. Um so it's like on one hand, it it seems intimidating sometimes thinking about bringing like my lowly mini zines into the art book fair, but it has always worked out like splendidly. Um it is this weird thing, the delineation of all these different things, like zines, artist books, chap books. Like there's a lot of blurriness there. Um and like when I think of a press like like Illuminated Press, Laura Rowley runs Illuminated Press is based in Trumansburg, near Ithaca, New York. That seems very like book arts, art book, artist book sort of publications. Like sometimes they're made with handmade paper, and there's like covers that are made from wood with holes drilled in them, and like some of these more like um, I don't know, artful ways of making a book. And so, like, yeah, I would I would say that in my mind the difference between like an art book and a zine is like just like maybe a different level of craftsmanship. I don't know. But yeah, it's very messy and confusing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because like I know you sent me you sent me a handmade chat book, and you also sent me zines, and then you also sent me um an artist book. And so it was it's interesting, like just seeing all the different ways to to make something, you know, um, and to get information across in a really like I don't know, they're all I like the the packaging on all not the the package, like the way things are made, like that kind of packaging, like they all look very different, but they've all got uh soul, I will say, like, which I think zines absolutely have, chat books absolutely have, artist books absolutely have. So like as opposed to like a regular book. So it's like I don't know, it's cool to see all the different like ways you can like showcase something. Um and I do think that it is it does get very blurry, and it it's something that like I don't know, keeps me from applying to art book fairs because I just get really intimidated about like because you know everything on my table is scrappy too. So it's like it's like, oh, well, I like you know, will I fit in um that kind of thing, right?
SPEAKER_03Well, it's like too like it's kind of nice that it's messy because you can kind of use it to your advantage as well. So like you, if you want to ask a price of for something and have it be higher, you can call something an artist book or a limited edition um to make it I mean command more money. I mean, really in the marketplace. So like you can kind of use those terms and like if you're and it's not only just like related to money, but related to like marketing what you've created to more to to be accessible to more people. Because if you call something a chat book, all the poets are gonna pay attention in a different way than if you called it an artist book. Like they know what a chat book is, so they're like, oh, what is it, what is your chat book? Like it's a known entity to them. And then, like, you know, book arts places like the Minnesota Center for Book Arts, I mean, they cover the whole spectrum, but you know, if you call something an artist book, that's you know, a little bit different for them. They're like, or like a library who might want to acquire it to have in their collection, their book arts collection. So you can kind of play with that messiness if you are willing to be okay with it. Like if you if you just like allow yourself to be in the in the uncomfortable stew of what are these publications, you can use it to your benefit.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. Yeah, that's that's actually really helpful advice. Like yeah, I'm putting it on record that I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna be okay with the weird in-between, and I'm gonna apply for an art book fair this year.
SPEAKER_03Do it.
SPEAKER_00Do it on record now. I can't, I can't go back on that. Everyone in the world has heard. Um, okay, those were the questions to ponder. And now we're back to the other questions. The regular, the regular guys. Um, so tell me about your general creative process. Is it different? Does it kind of vary from zine to zine, or like tell me tell me about making something for you?
SPEAKER_03When I'm making something, there's two paths. Two things can happen. One is it all comes out in one day, and I do the entire project in one day. I don't like edit it, I write it while I'm designing it. Like there's no, it's just like comes out in a blah. And then the other thing is like it languishes on my computer, have done for like three months to a year. Um, so those are kind of like the two processes, and it's really seems like a crapshoot which it's gonna be. I don't, I don't know why it's one way or the other. Probably just like my mood or like hormones or something. I don't know. Um, but yeah, that's kind of like how the process is for me, and I have been also with my zine projects, I used to strictly computer design. Like I grew up in an age of page maker and working on the yearbook and making things on in Adobe. So that's kind of like where my comfort zone is. But um, over the last few years, I've been experimenting with like drawing by hand, which is so scary. Um and I and I just actually took this class in the fall with Aubrey Hirsch, um, who's the author of Graphic Rage, which um is on Split Lip Press. And that class was called Comics for People Who Can't Draw. And it was fucking amazing. Like the it was an online class. It was like this, you know, the eight people who were in the class with me, like our abilities on drawing were like completely. There's one guy who like has made illustrations for the New Yorker, and then the rest of us were like drawing stick figures and looking for like the next level up. Um, so it was really fun and it made me like a lot more confident in my drawing skills. I think I'm gonna probably be drawing in a lot more of my zines moving forward. Um, and I really would love to experiment with like a tablet, like drawing digitally. I haven't really done that ever. I've just drawn things by hand and then like scan it and like manipulate it. Um, but yeah, so that's kind of my process and maybe where the direction my process might be going in in the future is more drawing by hand now that I have a little bit of like more courage and confidence.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah. And you've done some collage as well.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yep. I love collage. Collage is like I don't know how to describe it. It's like my happy place. It's just like my decompressing, like nothing related to the computer zone of creation. So yeah, I have incorporated collage in in a number of my zines. Um and other things as well. Like I have like some like lino cut block printing elements in some of my zines. I've done a little bit of Resograph printing, which is like super fun. Um, and actually the town I just moved to, uh Rat House Press is nearby. Nice. So I'm excited to like, you know, start working with them and maybe do some like printing experiments. Um, so I'm really like I love learning about different um methods of making that I could incorporate into my zines. Like I've tried letterpress, I've done a couple different sorts of things like that. And I like having all that. I'm definitely like a dabbler though. Uh I'm not like very, very good at any of those things. I just kind of know how to do them and like what I could do. So I like to have that kind of like it's almost like this array of things at my disposal when I'm working on my zine, and then I'm like, oh, this could really benefit from this particular thing that I did once in my life, and maybe I could like Google enough to figure out a second time.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah. I am a fellow dabbler. Um and I want to dabble in more. Like, I want to I want to do more riso, I wanna do more block printing. I love doing collage. I've been like stamping lately, like hand stamping every letter of a zine. Um that's fun and time consuming and really nice time away from the computer.
SPEAKER_03Individual letter stamps to make a word. Yeah, oh yeah. I think I would like give up after like two pages. That's like a lot of work.
SPEAKER_00It is, and that zine series, I also don't like sketch anything out idea-wise. I just I just go in there and what comes out on the page is sometimes a fully thought formed thought, and sometimes it's not. Sometimes I'll lose the train uh part way through the page.
SPEAKER_03I think it's good though that we keep trying to get in the flow like that without planning it all out. I mean, for me at least. Like I am a planner and uh an anxious person. And so like the the gut reaction is to like have everything planned. But when you can have those moments of just being in it and not knowing what's gonna happen, like that's such a good place to be. Like, that's that's the best creativity-wise. Cause like you're just letting your subconscious brain like take over. It's so cool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's absolutely a forced exposure to doing that because I'm also a planner and a very anxious person. So it's like I'm making myself be uncomfortable and not know where a zine is going. Um, and it it's fun, it's really fun.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, the stakes are not as high, too. Like it's this piece of paper. You could just throw it away.
SPEAKER_00That's true, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Like that's what I tell people when like a lot of people, uh, well, one of my zines is about how to use your notebook because I feel I all these people have anxiety about like you get a new notebook and you like are afraid to write in it, or what do I put in it? It's so special, it's so new, it's so like clean. But like you just have to do it. You just have to like mess it up. You just have to make a no one's ever gonna see it. Just put it in your notebook, no one is ever gonna see it.
SPEAKER_00That's one of the zines. Um we're gonna transition into me talking to you about the zines you made and sent me. Um sent me a bunch of mini zines about like how to do stuff. And I those are some of my favorite types of zines, is like a little mini on how to use your notebook, how to write about art, how to make a zine, how to um, you know, the artist residencies I wish ex existed. Like, I just I love I love mini zines, and I love zines that are like idea generators.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, mini zines, like I I fell in love with them the moment I saw them, and I will never not be in love with them. Like, just as a form, they're so perfect, they're so perfect as a form. They fit in your back pocket, they could fit in your front pocket, even if you have like stupid small pocket jeans. Like, they they're just so cute in your hand. Anyone can make them with one single piece of paper. It's just like I love everything about it, but I'll get off my mini zine soapbox, but oh dumb. Just keep going. Yeah, it's it's they're just I believe they're they're my favorite and the easiest type of zine to make, um, fast and like duplicate easily, and I just love them. But yeah, I the how-to zines, like it's like trying to help people know what I've learned. Like it's a way to for me to share what I've learned. Like, I didn't know how to make a mini zine, so here, here's how to make a mini zine. I didn't know that writing about was art was an entire like form of writing. So here, now you can do it too. Like, I kind of like that. Um, and it and it and it also I think for me balances out the more personal zines. Like, not everything on my table at the zine fest do I have to be like embarrassed if someone picks up. Like, there's gotta be a few things that like I I could see someone handling and not be starting to blush.
SPEAKER_00That's very real. I feel like mini zines are like, if my parents were ever like, oh, let us see one of your zines, I would be like, these are the ones you're allowed to look at and maybe even read.
SPEAKER_03Totally.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No per zines for them. No, no, no. You can have a mini zine about dogs. Or like, you know, any other subject that's not me. But I do agree, they're like the perfect, they're such a good vehicle for information, and you can fit them in any pocket. Um, I also really like that your zines, some of the mini zines you sent me are in, I think, which one is it? Um how to use your notebook is in Spanish if you like flip it uh inside out.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there's I think two zines, I think How to Make a Zine, too. How to make a zine is like that as well. And those are zines that were grant funded. So that's another thing. I don't speak Spanish myself, but because I had grant funding, I could hire someone to help me translate those zines into Spanish. And I was like, well, no, I'm not doing anything with the back side. You could literally just fold it again the other way with the same cut of paper. Like you don't have to do anything extra, it's just printing another page. So yeah, that was like an easy way to to expand the reach of those zines, you know. But I really only could do it with having grant money because I was able to pay someone to do that work, as I should.
SPEAKER_00So hell yeah. That's like it's just also like translating zines is so cool. Like I I think translation is such a I can't do it myself. Like I don't really I can like read French, but I can't really speak it like I can't read any other language, but like it's just such a cool skill to have and such a great way to make things more accessible for more people.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Is there do you know, is there like a big translation zine community?
SPEAKER_00I mean, I'm I don't feel like I'm a I would be a part of it because I don't speak any um other languages besides English, but um I've only ever seen a couple of zines that I know of translated, one of them being Elliot's um how to support your non binary family member, which has been translated into Spanish and maybe some I think some other languages as well. Like they they've had really good reach with that one getting translated. But I think more grants should pay more people to translate more zines.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, agreed. Grant people out there, pay attention. We need your money.
SPEAKER_00Listen up, everyone who gives out grant money. Hear ye, hear ye. Pay us to translate things. Or pay us to pay people to translate things. Um one of the other zines you sent me that I really liked and actually made me go into action mode today um is how to bathroom. And I hate cleaning the bathroom, but I think it's the most important room to clean, um, especially if you're gonna have people over. And it's funny because I just finished a book on having like how to have people over at your house, and it was like clean, but clean all the time, and not just when people are like watching, and I was like, oh yeah. So I I clean, I like partially cleaned my bathroom today on my lunch break just after reading this zine. I was like, I gotta, I gotta do something. I it was a call to action. Um, and I appreciated that.
SPEAKER_03That is so funny. That zine, oh my gosh, the the history of that zine. It's literally just a step-by-step guide to what to do to clean my specific bathroom at that time. Like it doesn't even really like apply to my future bathrooms and current bathroom because like things are arranged differently now. But it was like, you know, I just like I was the only one cleaning the bathroom to my standards in my uh household. And so it had to be written down and provided. And the the best thing about that zine is that my partner has that zine in his drawer in the bathroom, and he fucking uses it. He uses it because I can tell the pages are all crumpled and stuff, and so it actually did serve its purpose, it really did. And I have gotten such interesting reactions from people who have gotten the hold of that zine. Like some people who are like, you know, like, oh, I definitely need this for my house, and like walk away with a copy of it. You know what I mean? Like they they are obviously encountering something like that at their house, but also just like it seems sometimes, even these small things, like such an insurmountable task to clean your bathroom. Like in these times, everything is just so to have something written down that's just like do this, do this, do this, do this, just can make it a little more bearable, I think.
SPEAKER_00Agreed, and like that was one of my big ta like growing up, it was like I was in charge of cleaning the bathrooms and I hated it, and I was like, why me?
SPEAKER_03Um that should definitely be a rotating chore. There's no reason one person should always do that one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was me, and it was like I wasn't allowed to it was one of those like you can't go hop on the train and go to San Francisco until you clean the bathroom. And I was like, I'm 15, just let me go hop on a train to San Francisco, please. Um yeah, that was one of the like like kind of held over my head, like you can't go have fun until you clean the bathroom kind of chores.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I feel like for me, I was I was not really taught how to clean. I was expected to clean, but like no one ever really told me what to do. Like I still the other day was like combining, I've combined bleach and vinegar, and then half the internet's like, you shall die. Like you have just like done something bad. Um, and there was a very noxious odor. Um, but like I don't know where I'm supposed to get these skills, so I get them from zines. Like there's a really um, I I'm thinking of the cover of this like non-toxic household cleaner zine that I've seen at Zine Fest before, and now I'm like, I should have fucking bought that because I almost like killed my dog because of this bleach.
SPEAKER_00I would love a zine like that because I've been having trouble cleaning getting stains off of my like kitchen counters, and I find myself every time I have a tough stain, I find myself Googling like, should I mix these?
SPEAKER_03Like, I feel like if you're Googling something, there should be a zine for that. Like, that's either a sign that you should make if you're Googling a question, you should either be able to find a zine that already exists, or it's an opportunity for you to make one because like those are the perfect examples of things like we actually don't need to be giving them all this data on what we know and don't know. We could just, you know, handle it amongst ourselves.
SPEAKER_00That's such a good point. That put really puts things into perspective for me as someone who is constantly googling things. Yeah. But now I have answers, and but now I have like answers and lived experience. So like I could just make a zine about it.
SPEAKER_03I'm sure you'd you know put it with the other 50 million ideas for zine. I'm sure everyone has running in their in their head or their notebook.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But I I'm sure somebody, I mean, like you mentioned, you've seen one, somebody out there has a a zine on like household, like homemade household cleaners. Cause like everyone needs to clean. That's such a great idea. I'm I'm gonna look for one. I'm gonna find one.
SPEAKER_03It's gotta be. It's I can see the cover in my in my mind. I know it's out there. Someone's got it.
SPEAKER_00If it's you, please get in touch. If you're listening and you make that zine, I need to find you. We need a uh one of the other zines um you sent that I want to talk about is your chat book, um, Except Reject. And this one was really cool. Um, I've talked to a couple people on here about blackout poetry. Um, and this um you have listed as like erasure poems, and I think is that because it's like I is it are they the same thing, just kind of the way they're presented differently?
SPEAKER_03To me, they're the same thing. Um, I use erasure poetry and blackout poetry or redaction poetry kind of interchangeably, depending on my audience. If you're more in the publishing industry, erasure is gonna like kind of elevate that that form. And if you're like making a poster for your library event for the community, blackout poetry is gonna be better. And if you're talking to your parents, redaction is the best. Um so that's I I definitely use them, you know, interchangeably depending on what the usage is. Um the it's so funny though, because you know what? Are you calling that a chat book because that little thing that was stuck on the front?
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_03So that was written by someone who reviewed it. I don't call that a chat book. Okay. But but but it's fine. I mean, it like I said, I exist in the messy stew of form. Um, but yeah, so that that excerpt that was on the front is like a little bit of a a review of that chat book, and um I just call it a zine. I don't know why. But to my mind, like for me, a chat book is like gotta be half page and have a heavier weight cover. I don't know. In my mind, that's what chat book means. I don't know. But um, yeah, accept reject is it's erasure or blackout poems from my acceptance and rejection emails for various things. And I'm actually completely out. I I have no more left. So I've made two editions of this zine, a hundred each. I'm about to make my third edition of a hundred, um, which is really cool because like I it's the only zine I've tracked how many I've ever made and gotten, you know, distributed. Um, so I'm excited to like get into the next, and I think I might add a couple poems for this next one. So I might write some new ones um with my various mostly rejections but some acceptances. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I thought it was very cool that like well, for one, I really enjoy the like kind of see-through paper. Um is it vellum paper? Is that what it's called?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's vellum. And honestly, the only reason I had it in there is because I found some of a package of vellum at the like creative reuse store. And I was like, what's this? And just put it in there for fanciness. And then like I started realizing I really like the effect that it gives, like kind of like that see-through glow. And since I've seen like vellum used on the outside of chat books or of the outside of zines, and it's I think an issue of Wanderer maybe actually had it. Um, and it's really cool because it like gives this like ghostly effect, and you can see the illustration underneath coming through. But then for the second edition, I had to actually buy vellum, and it's like not that cheap. But oh well, it's for the it's all for the good of the book.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it looks great. Um it's very cool looking, and I really liked the poems, you know. Like I like how did did the title of the poem come first or did the poem like which came first in most cases?
SPEAKER_03The poems are really sparse and really short. Um they are all in order that the words appeared in the rejection email. So each poem starts dear something. So I just kept going from that. So they're all the the the poem appears as it did in the email, just with all the other words erased.
SPEAKER_00Got it. So even dear and then the other word that's in.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. That's cool.
SPEAKER_03Cause because all rejection and acceptance emails they use typically if you're applying through like submittable, which is like one of the main platforms for applying for things, you know, there's slide room and others, but they have forms and that they put in these form placeholders where they put you know the submitters' names. So it's usually like dear Erin, thank you for applying for blah blah blah. And then I just so I just take the dear and then I go to the next word wherever, and then cool.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_03Hell yeah. I really one thing I do I also like about that zine is that like listing the sources in the centerfold. I love the centerfold. Like I have used the centerfold a lot in my work, and I love the opening of it and the flatness of it and the pause of it in the zine. Um, but in that one, I have listed out where all these source texts originally came from. And it's funny to like look back and think about like places that rejected me or or or fondly look at places where, oh, I remember like I actually had a poem published in that place, and now I have this. Not only did I have that poem published, but I got this secondary poem out of it somehow. It's like funny to me. Like makes me like my my thrifty heart happy that I got like a second poem out of it.
SPEAKER_00Speaking of center folds, um, the last zine I want to talk to you about is how the house scene. Um this was it, I mean, it looks really cool. It's like block print. Um and it it came to do you usually have it flat? It came to me flat, so I assumed it was flat.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I usually keep these flat because like in my mind, this is like a zine masquerading as a broadside, and that's kind of like how I set up the center fold. So the the front of the zine has this black print of a house on fire, and the threads, um, they kind of like come out in the flames, and the thread is red, and it kind of like gives this 3D flame effect. Um and then on the back I have a poem called Fuck Housing, which I think is pretty good and love. It makes me laugh and also like so fucking angry. Um, because it's about all the things that we have decided to build instead of housing. Um so it's not meant to be folded. The inside pages are foldable so that you can read the rest of the zine. Um, but it's meant to stay flat and kind of be like a, you know, a poetry broadside sort of um idea with a secret zine.
SPEAKER_00I was very gentle when I was reading it because I was just like, I don't think I'm supposed to fold this, I have to keep it flat. And so I was like very delicately like peeling the pages, like yeah.
SPEAKER_03After you do it a couple times. Thank you. After you do it a few times, it it gets easier to turn the pages. Um but that yeah, this was like an experiment kind of. Um this one I did apply for a grant for, and I got a grant to make it, and then I also made a companion zine, which was a community um at ADK housing zine. Yeah. So we when I like quote unquote launched the house zine, um we I, you know, all my renter friends were there in the community that I lived in, and we all made a collaborative zine about our experiences with um the housing market and renting, and it was just like so nice because no one ever asked renters anything. Like we're just like a forgotten group who is like really given no respect and asked no for no opinions other than give us your money. But that night was really nice because we were all like you know in solidarity.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I really liked both zines. Uh like I love a community collaboration zine, um, like the ADH ADK housing zine. And then I like in the house zine, I was thinking, like, you talk about how much you've spent on rent over the last 17 years. And I was like, I've never thought about that, but like I'm sure it is an exorbitant amount for anyone who's been renting, like for any amount, you know, any amount of time. Housing is so expensive, and like, you know, it doesn't count towards your credit score. There's no tax write officer rent.
SPEAKER_03Like, I know it's it's really galling because like you think about too, as renters, I should say I am a homeowner at the moment. I have finally obtained a house. Um, but renters, you know, I did I rented for years and years, and you are spending so much money renting, but you're still not given this like baseline respect. Like you're still seen as like not good enough or like not valid enough because you are still renting. Like it's just so ridiculous to me. And like, yeah, once you start adding up those numbers, you're like, damn, like that's a lot. It doesn't seem like it because you have to, you have to pay it, you know, to have a place to live. You don't think about it, you know. I mean, you think about it because you're like, I can't believe I have to pay this, but like the cumulative number you don't really think about until you realize, like, like when I tried to go to the next step of getting a house is when I realized like that counted for nothing. That meant nothing to no one except for me being able to survive.
SPEAKER_00Damn.
SPEAKER_03There's a huge housing crisis. I mean, it's it's everywhere, it's every town, it's all across the country. I mean, it's not when I made this housing, I was living in a part of New York that's a tourist area. There's like additional considerations, but it was no different when I moved to a more urban area. It's still like hell to get housing and keep housing. And it truly should be the most basic human right. And everyone should be allowed to have one house.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I'm yeah, I just want to sit with that. Like, I feel very lucky to have like have a really stable housing situation right now, but like, you know, renting sucks. Like I've rent I've rented for so long, and only in the last like six years has it been like stable, you know, like yeah, it's just it's so hard to find housing. And with a like uh landlords. Um a lot of the time they're just not good. They don't treat it like they treat it like they're doing you a favor by letting you live there and maybe fixing something every once in a while. Like, but it's it there should be more respect for renters, I think.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. It's it's really like this feeling of like that they're better, like landlords are better than you because they somehow obtained this house that they're now renting out to you. But like that did not probably require like much skill or intellect to do. Um that was just probably luck or like generational wealth or whatever. So yeah, I know I've had that experience too. I have had some good landlords like who actually cared, and probably because the apartment was in their house. Like, so they were like kind of like housemates. You know, that was the kind of the best safe best best case scenario with landlords for me. Um but yeah, it's it's I didn't I didn't think a lot about it until it became like unstable for me with housing. Um, and then it got like bad really fast. And I was like, oh shit, how are other people doing this? Like, and you know, remembering reading all these articles about people living in their car and living in hotels and like students on college campuses not having a place to live, and you know, it all kind of started to click into place like this is this is a huge issue this that's that a lot of us are encountering. And how could we be expected to even come close to like our potential as a human if we can't have a safe place to sleep and a place to eat food? Um, you know, it's like the most vulnerable things. Um, how can you be an artist when you're worrying about that? How can you be a parent when you're worrying about that? How can you be engaged politically when you're worrying about that? Like it's just such a basic necessity. Um, it really, you know, my experience in the last few years with housing has brought all of that to the forefront for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. It was it was really I felt like it was a really powerful read. Um, both zines together. Um and just really it made me think about housing in ways that I maybe have never thought about in like the forefront, but have like you know, because I've I've thought about like damn. I wish I didn't have to rent or like, damn, I pay so much in rent. I wonder how much I've paid over the course of my whole life. You know, like things like that. So it's like it made me think about things more deeply, I think, than I have thought about housing before, or at least in a really long time.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's I feel like that's gotta be like one of the best, you know, reasons to make or read a zine is to, you know, gain some sort of like different perspective or new view and think about things a little bit differently than the way that you always were. So thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, absolutely. Um, are you currently working on anything?
SPEAKER_03Switching gears. Many, many, so many things. Um, yeah, so I am gonna do the third edition of Accept Reject with maybe some bonus poems. So that's on my agenda. Um I'm also working on kind of like a satirical zine, and it's um, I'll talk a little bit about it. It's not ready yet, but I'll talk a little bit about it. It's called the Dream Nonprofit, and it's a trifold brochure zine. So like I love like messing with forms and like making things look like other things. So this is gonna look like a really cheesy kind of like nonprofit zine or uh brochure. And the dream nonprofit is kind of like sourced from my friends and my experiences at nonprofits and what we think it could be like if you were working at the dream nonprofit. So, like, for example, there's like things like at the zine, at the dream nonprofit, at the zine nonprofit. At the dream nonprofit, all the files in the Google Drive are impeccably organized. And at the dream nonprofit, no meetings are scheduled back to back. Like just these like things that we've encountered, and not all of me, but like real people have encountered in the world at these nonprofits that we were for, like, because I know a lot of people works in like arts nonprofits and environmental nonprofits and things like that. Um, so I'm working on that, the dream nonprofit. We'll see how it goes. Um, and then I am also I I have kind of hit a point in this zine, like in the early aughts or I don't know when, like 2010s. On Instagram, I was really into that thing where you took a picture looking down at your feet and you hashtag it from where I stand. So I decided I want to do my first photo zine using some of those photos since I deleted them off to Instagram. Um, but I got it all laid out, and then I'm like, fuck. Some of these I'm barefooted. And am I gonna run into some sort of issue with this? So I'm like, I'm just pausing that one to think about like if I want to put my bare feet in this photo zine. Like, no shame, but like I don't know, it just like threw me for a loop thinking about that. And then I was like, well, they've been on the internet, so like people have already seen my feet. It's like not that big of a deal. But um, so those are kind of like three things that are in my immediate, semi-immediate docket, but who knows? Like, I'll probably think of an idea tomorrow and then all weekend make it, and then it'll be ready on Monday, and it'll be something I never even thought about before.
SPEAKER_00Hell yeah. That's the thing about zine, like zine ideas is sometimes they come out of nowhere, and you just you knock it out, and you're like, oh, I didn't expect to make this, finish it so quickly, like, and now it exists. Um, and that's special, but and it can be like triggered by the weirdest things.
SPEAKER_03Like, I see it the perfect color paper, and I'm like, I gotta make that zine. This is the perfect green for that one thing, and I'm making it today. Like, you know, it's so random.
SPEAKER_00Brains and zines, man. What are you what are you working on? Um, I'm trying to finish up Zine of the Hill 4, um, which again will hopefully be done by the time this goes up. Um, I want to make a seventh issue of one of my Persine series um about it's largely about like mental health and sobriety and sometimes gender. It's really just like here's what I'm dealing with, and that's the one that I hand stamp most of the issues. So I just gotta pick a day to stamp and think. But yeah, I'm like I I'm hoping I think by the time this goes up, I'll definitely know if I got into a zine fest, but I'm hoping for some like springtime zine fests to like motivate me to make stuff.
SPEAKER_03Definitely. I think um, yeah, I just I am waiting to hear on the 518 Zine Fest in Albany, New York. So maybe that and like the Rochester has the um Indie Comics Expo and I like tentatively applied to that, even though I wouldn't say I'm like a comics zine, but I have like some ideas and I would definitely work on them if I got into the into the comics, indie comics expo. So we'll see. But yeah, I know that feeling you're just like waiting to hear, am I going? Is it gonna be a flurry of activity?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I booked my flights already for this one zine fest, so like cool. If I don't get in, I'm spending a weekend in Phoenix, Arizona.
SPEAKER_03Like yeah, you gotta still go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it'll be fun, but I hope that I'm tabling a zine fest.
SPEAKER_03Um well if you're if you're if you end up going to Arizona, you gotta go to WSD, wasted. Oh, I'm ZD.
SPEAKER_00I'm staying with Carissa, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god, amazing. Yeah, that's great.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that'll be fun.
SPEAKER_03Um, I haven't been to the new location, but I've never been there because I've never been to Arizona, but I've I would love to go there someday. That'd be like a dream trip.
SPEAKER_00I'll do a report back. Um, I think actually, you know, like not a live episode, but like a special report from Wasted Inc. would be really fun.
SPEAKER_03That would be awesome. I would love that.
SPEAKER_00Um, what oh do you have anything else you want to talk about zine related? Um upcoming. I guess you already mentioned stuff you're working on and potential upcoming events, but anything else?
SPEAKER_03Nope. Uh I guess like in closing, I would just say, you know, keep your eyes on Minnesota. I mean, we used to live there. We have a lot of friends still in Minnesota, and the reports are still really, really bad. Um so yeah, that's like if I'm gonna draw attention to anything, I would say like the standwithminnesota.com website is a great place to go to find ways you can get involved and be supportive of what they're dealing with there. Who knows what will be happening by the time this comes out?
SPEAKER_00Hopefully less. Um yeah. I some folks who have been on the show before, um, specifically Alice and Ann from Nonmachinable. Um, I know they're doing a lot of mutual aid fundraising. Um, they're in Minneapolis.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, so I will post um a link to I don't I'm not on Instagram anymore, but I think they might be, but I'll post a link to their blue sky in the show notes um cool for mutual aid stuff.
SPEAKER_03Whatever's happening when this comes out, we're gonna need solidarity wherever. So, you know, keep in touch with the zine sters because they know like they know what's going on and like the ways to help that really make a difference.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Yeah, thank you for for bringing that um up.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Um Aaron, this has been a delight. I am so glad that we got to chat about zines um and artworks and chat books.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me and asking such good questions about my zines. It was nice to like think back, you know, on some of them that I made a little while ago.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. I'm so excited about I love doing the podcast because it gets I get to read so many more zines than I would like regularly, and it's so nice to like be building this really cool curated collection of like cool stuff that people send me and that I get to like then ask them questions about directly, which is really cool.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for all that you do to spread the good word about zines.
SPEAKER_00Um nobody saw me except for Aaron, but I just saluted. Um I returned. I returned. There was a return salute. Um yeah, also thank you everyone for listening. Um it I say this ever I think every episode, but like it's so wild to me that I'm still doing this and that people listen. Like I've been doing this since 2017, December 2017. Um it's really fun, and I have so much fun doing it. Um thank you to my monthly Kofi podcast supporters. Um, it means so much to me and it helps subsidize the cost of hosting and production. Um, if you have found a zine stir that you like a new zine stir to you that you found on the podcast, or if you've been enjoying the podcast, um, please consider sending a dollar a month my way on Kofi. Um you can also send more than a dollar, but a dollar is the lowest amount. Um uh there's a link in the show notes. Um that's all I got. So yeah, thank you again, everyone, for listening. Thank you, monthly Kofi podcast supporters, and thank you, Erin. Um, this has been a delight.
SPEAKER_03Thank you, Mayra.
SPEAKER_00All right, bye, everybody.
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